Time after time after time while attending seminars on the current problems I see “the Market” copping the blame for causing all this. It is also all over blogs everywhere. Supposedly, if only the regulators had been doing their jobs well, or current “fads” in deregulation had not existed then there would have been no problems.
As regular readers of this blog would know, I would class myself as very much of a sceptic on this type of analysis. There are several suppositions in there that I find at best unconvincing and at worst straight out wrong.
Firstly – apart from a few loans given out by fraudsters most of the loans were made in the expectation of returns. Banks are not charities and so they were expecting to get prinicipal and interest back. Where the loans were made to people with NINJA conditions (no income, no job or assets) it would have been through capital increase – i.e. appreciation in the value of the home.
A second problem here was those banks using brokers to sell the loans and then giving them incentives for getting the loans in through the door, rather than (as happens here – and not by regulation) for continuing performance through trail commissions. This mean that some brokers were just handing them out and using high-pressure techniques and breaking both the law and their contracts with the banks.
At a regulatory level, however, the problem gets more interesting. Firstly, Fannie and Freddie, as GSEs (government sponsored enterprises) were using their implicit government support to lower the lending rates to the prime loans they were (largely) restricted to. This also heavily skewed the markets – home lending through Fannie and Freddie became the same as lending to governments, so there was no risk sensitivity. They were also able to (and increasingly did) use these borrowing rates to issue many complex derivatives based on home loans. They were also, as GSEs, not subject to the same regulations as everyone else. Nobody really cared about this because there was an understanding that Uncle Sam would ride to the rescue if needed – as they did.
Worse, since 2004 Fannie and Freddie were not restricted to prime loans – they had about USD 500 billion in the sub prime market. The entry of Fannie and Freddie into this market acted to further squeeze the private money into the riskier end.
A further, major, regulatory problem is the way that housing loans were (and in the US still are) treated under Basel II. For capital purposes all home loans were treated exactly the same – whether a ninja loan to someone in the projects or a 10% LVR loan on a $10,000,000 stately home on Long Island.
Everyone knew this was silly, so there grew up a large market in
derivatives based on home loans that was designed to arbitrage the
difference between the loans the GSEs could touch and those they could
not.
The net result of this interplay between the GSEs, the capital
regulations and lax lending standards due to high monetary growth was
that the banks were stuffed with cash they had to get out the door. They
were unable to use the cash to make loans to the good risks that Fannie
and Freddie had cornered and the capital regulations said that all home
loans were as safe as each other. The brokers were often being paid to
make loans (not necessarily good ones) and the banks did not care as
much as they should have as, for the last 10 or more years, home prices
had risen as much as, if not more, than their prime lending rates. Many
of the banks were also, by their charters, prohibited from lending
outside the US or for other than homes.
If Fannie and Freddie had not been there and the capital regulations (if they existed) had actually been risk sensitive then lending would have been (IMHO) better – but, as always, not perfect. This would have reduced (but perhaps not eliminated) the ninja loans, meaning the house prices would not have gone up as much, meaning returns from other than capital would have been examined.
I am not trying to assign sole blame for this to the regulators. All I am saying is that they did not help – so expecting more regulation to fix the problem would be the triumph of hope over experience. In the US at least, the problem was in large part caused by the multiple overlapping systems of regulation, the effects of the GSEs and the frankly stupid incentives it gave many of the market participants. My strong suggestion would be to look at sorting these out first before running off and trying to put in place more straitjackets for an industry that is already tightly bound.
33 comments
10 October, 2008 at 11:43
Chris Hamilton
Hi there,
I tried contacting you a while ago but never received a response, can you please email me so we can discuss my proposal?
Thanks
12 October, 2008 at 01:10
graemebird
The regulations aren’t helpful. But the problems were caused by fractional reserve. And obviously so. You would have to be a complete idiot to not understand this. No-one was forced to make any individual loan. They could have simply not made the loan. The regulations were to do with not being able to expand their leverage more if they didn’t make certain types of loans. They ought to have kept their leverage low and not made the loan.
Hence the regulations really had nothing to do with it. It was always, LIKE EVERY BANKING CRISIS EVER about fractional reserve.
12 October, 2008 at 15:48
Graeme Bird
I’ve got a bone to pick with you Reynolds. You must have known that we are up to our eyeballs in naked shorts and counterfeit shares and you tried to pretend that it isn’t happening.
And notice how you and Cambria tried to handle this absolute criminal behaviour. You tried a two-way strategy, both of you. of claiming that it wasn’t happening and that it would be fine if it was.
Obviously you are up to your eyeballs in it. Since its obvious criminal behaviour.
Now the government has to release cash as they increase the reserve asset ratio. They could kill two birds with one stone, use the cash to help settle and bankrupt all the naked artists. To get settlement for innocent superannuation clients they would end up having to bid the shares right up. And thus reconstitute the superannuation portfolios and bankrupt every damn broker who is tarnished with this into the process.
It would be a beautiful thing.
Now don’t lie to me again and say that its not happening in this country. Because you are insulting my intelligence. And you went out of your way to mislead the Catallaxians.
14 October, 2008 at 15:00
Andrew
Graeme,
Just to clarify one point – apart from through a couple of superannuation funds, I currently have no exposire to the stock markets at all. None – not even through shorts. At these levels, though, I am looking at buying in.
The rest of your comments are your usual, and you well know where I stand on fractional reserve.
Have a good day.
16 October, 2008 at 08:47
Graeme Bird
You and Cambria lied to the Catallaxians using the same two-way strategy. You tried to pretend that naked shorting wasn’t going on. And at the same time you were making out that it would be fine if it was.
So are you saying that you are in favour of fractional reserve CASH as well as watering shares with counterfeit shares?
You are slipperier than a bran turd. I’m not interested that you happen to be cashed out. I’m wondering why you tried to mislead everyone.
16 October, 2008 at 13:09
Andrew
Graeme,
If you have something useful to contribute, go ahead. I will not put up with, nor reply to, naked abuse.
16 October, 2008 at 13:29
graemebird
Well how about it then? You still in favour of watering shares with counterfeit shares? You think that ought to be legal?
16 October, 2008 at 18:14
Andrew
Graeme,
I am not in favour of it or against it. I do not think it should be illegal, though. A sale on a market is a commitment to deliver the objects of the sale at a particular time in the future. Provided you have a reasonable basis to believe you can deliver the objects, the sale contract can be entered into.
It is like any other contract, Graeme. Provided you have a reasonable basis to believe you will be able to meet your commitments under it (and the actual transaction is legal) I do not believe you should be barred from entering the contract.
20 October, 2008 at 09:16
Graeme Bird
Thats not true at all. The sale is the committment to hand over ownership of something. In this case real shares. Not to deliver the certificates. How can you justify this being legal? You are being an idiot mate! You are supposed to have some sort of expertise and you are acting like a lunatic. How can you justify cronytown watering down the shares and pyramiding on top of them? So there are more outstanding ponzi shares than real shares? What is your economic case for such idiocy?
You are supposed to have some sort of argument Reynolds. Sue your lecturers.
20 October, 2008 at 09:30
Andrew
Your second sentence is correct. A sale contract for shares is a T + 2 contract in Australia – i.e. it is a commitment to deliver the shares that are the subject of the contract two days after the deal is struck. Provided you expect to have the shares to deliver then I see no problem. In fact, when brokers are dealing with clients this is a normal activity.
Of course if you do not expect to have the shares to deliver then there is an issue – just as there would be if you are doing large amounts of selling in a strategy to drive the price down.
Additionally, Graeme – while I have not had a cause to ban anyone yet, and I would be loathe to do so here, please do not use abuse. If you continue to do so you will be put on moderation.
20 October, 2008 at 10:12
Graeme Bird
No thats what the law is now. I’m contesting the law idiot. So you saying what the law happens to be is irrelevant. When what we were talking about is what the law SHOULD be.
Get it together Reynolds will you? Or are you going to be an idiot all your life.
Now what is the advantages of these ponzi-rackets. Like selling ponzi-gold. And the shortages in gold this has caused at the moment. The underpricing of gold to the producer. The low inventory levels we are seeing in many commodities.
Surely there must be some advantage to these ponzi-rackets or you wouldn’t be saying that some people ought to be allowed to conduct these share-watering scams.
We know what you are up to because you are crooked. You have to defend these other ponzi-scams because fractional reserve is the same sort of scam. I mean your crowd has destroyed Iceland and white-anted the US from within with your ponzi-scams. You are a bunch of proven failures and welfare recipients. But its not as if you are going to back down on these inherently fraudulent practices.
20 October, 2008 at 10:52
Andrew
Graeme,
Not having the shares on hand when you sell them is quite normal – it is why there is T + 2 settlement.
Just as background, borrow transactions can happen in real time.
As a normal course of business you may have a long-standing borrow arrangement with a counterparty – i.e. they hold large quantities of shares in all (say) ASX 200 companies. You spot a spike in the price and decide to sell short. You sell and then, to avoid the costs of having shares sitting in your account for two days you set up the borrow arrangement for 2 days hence. You are selling naked short, but you have a defined, willing and able lender to cover the short when you need to do so.
Second example (much more common). Broker has a long standing client who happens to have multiple accounts with different brokers. You client decides to sell some shares through you which he has with another broker. Client instructs you to sell the shares and they will deliver them to you tomorrow. You have a naked short, but a clear cover.
Do you really think either of these situations deserve to be treated as a criminal case of fraud? Yes or no.
22 October, 2008 at 10:05
Steve Edney
HI Andrew,
I’ve increasingly come around to the idea that its a BIG problem having standardized risk models approved by the regulator. I can’t help thinking that we should not expected anything but everyone mispricing risks in the same way if everyone is expected to build essentially the same risk modelling framework.
While in pricinciple it is possible to run you own risk models as well as the regulatory approved ones these ultimately have no teeth if we have an “approved” model that is giving different results (and ultimately the same results as everyone else).
Certainly this is my experience in trying to calibrate VAR is even a slightly different way to how the regulator thinks it should be done. Interestingly in the example I am thinking of the in house VAR performed much better estimator through the last year than the regulatory version (far from perfect but clearly better). Capital however was reserved against the regulatory version.
22 October, 2008 at 13:43
Andrew
Steve,
I would agree. From my experience on these models, it seemed as if the regulators were not going to be satisfied unless every model produced largely similar results. I will not say which bank it was, but essentially they kept saying “No” until the models corresponded with what they believed it should be.
To me, this sort of regulatory induced groupthink is part of the problem.
23 October, 2008 at 06:01
graemebird
“Not having the shares on hand when you sell them is quite normal – it is why there is T + 2 settlement.”
Not only is it not normal. It ought not be allowed. Its crooked behaviour and opens the bourse itself to any amount of trickery and abuse. The place must be fair crawling with lawyers. They must be hiring people with double degrees and one in law. Because this is disgusting shonky behaviour and it means that any number of scams can be perpetrated once this sort of crap gets started.
For example. If I pretend to sell a share on a certain date, but I haven’t sold any such share, if the customer hasn’t got the exact price fixed in his mind, this initial deception allows me to go over the days or the hours trading and bullshit him about what price I managed to buy for him. Thats just one of the scams right there. So the brokers can be undercharging for their transaction fee but skimming off the top. The broker, if he doesn’t have to deliver, can wait for days thinking he can fulfill at a lower price than what he let on and pocket the difference.
Don’t be getting about telling people that this is ok. Standard behaviour in property transactions is for all parties to retain equal priviledges, for the ownership of the silver coins and the goods to be exhanged, one property being swapped for another, whilst minimising the time where ambiguity remains.
The drugs and the cash must be handed over with the principles guns on the table and the bodyguards pointing their guns at eachother. The coke gets handed to the checkout chick, the cash gets handed over, at that moment the coke has changed in terms of whose property it is, when the chick hands over the change the transaction is complete. Everything handled by custom to absolutely minimize ambiguity in ownership down to a few heartbeats.
This is fractional reserve for you. It corrupts standard practices built up over millenia. Its like the worst computer virus.
23 October, 2008 at 06:14
graemebird
“Steve Edney
HI Andrew,
I’ve increasingly come around to the idea that its a BIG problem having standardized risk models approved by the regulator.”
You are just completely barking up the wrong tree Edney. Its not this or that model. An elephant balancing on his trunk must fall over. You cannot say when or what the precipitating cause is. You know he must fall over. No model can tell you when.
A chain letter collapses when it runs out of chain. A ponzi scheme might be kept going with cartelization regulation and crafty subsidies. But if the wealth production stops in a house-flipping boom, and you run out of black folks to flip to sooner or later it must crash.
You’ve just got a stupid idea about computer models. You had this with the climate thing as well. Since its a ponzi-scheme it must fall over if it is not restrained from doing so by reserve asset ratios “too high” for the market concentration.
Once Paulson and those guys got together and asked to be able to expand their leverage from 12 to 1, up to 40 to 1 and beyond the collapse was pre-ordained but the date of the collapse was not.
We have the rate of real wealth production by the non-finance sector. We have the level of debts. We have the relative level of cash balances. And we have the extent of the pyramiding by the banks.
If these all get out of line the ponzi-scheme must collapse.
If the economy was creating a lot of real wealth the parasitism of the government and banking sectors can be higher. And if people carry higher cash balances and less personal debt the ponzi-scheme can continue.
But when you have massive bank pyramiding, low cash balances, and high debt levels the crash is foretold and can only be staved off by continuing inflation and subsidies of various sorts to the banks. This must undermine wealth creation and so the collapse is on the way.
What you ought to be studying is not some sort of smoke-and-mirrors jive about “risk management” or “prudential regulation” but the architecture of how a chain letter explodes and collapses or how other ponzi-schemes do likewise.
23 October, 2008 at 06:21
graemebird
“As a normal course of business you may have a long-standing borrow arrangement with a counterparty – i.e. they hold large quantities of shares in all (say) ASX 200 companies. You spot a spike in the price and decide to sell short. You sell and then, to avoid the costs of having shares sitting in your account for two days you set up the borrow arrangement for 2 days hence.”
Its absolutely not on. Thats watering the shares. Thats creating shares out of thin air and leading to an underpricing of the shares which makes it harder for the entrepreneur to raise capital. This is outrageous since it hurts startups disproportionately. It hurts companies that are not in the phase of their life-cycle where they can expect to be able to pay steady dividends.
People have this simplified Hayekian view of pricing being about information. So recovering communist-economists with this sort of hyper-thin understanding of the price system think that the effects of all this can be overcome by rational expectations or by some sort of efficient market.
Price is about information. But its about far more than information. Prices bring incentives, information, temptations, and REAL RESOURCES. Producer prices affect other producer prices. You start ponzying up phantom property like this and you have absolutely cocked up a functioning market.
23 October, 2008 at 06:37
graemebird
See you guys are talking about “a regulator”. Already when matters have gotten that far you have co-opted the law. If the culture of the markets has been corrupted to this extent you may well need a regulator with wide powers just to keep all the natives in line. Just to make sure they cannot cook up a new scheme every day of the week to skim off the top and wreck peoples superannuation or a companies ability to expand. But the way you guys are talking about it you have a regulator with so many stupid regulations he doesn’t need to focus on securing objective conditions of clarity in property rights.
What needs to be done, now that its clear that standard behaviours of decency and decorum have been done away with……….
… What needs to be done is something akin to how Lee Kwan Yew had to clean up the behaviour of the Singaporean people under conditions of uncertain survival.
Surrounded as he was by communists and potentially explosive racial and sectarian problems, he decided that his cities survival depended on being a place of cleanliness and decency that Western soldiers could go to to get away and take a rest from the then dirtiness and danger of the rest of Asia that they were fighting in. So it became critical that people didn’t spit in the streets or piss in the lifts. But it turned out that people were determined to continue to piss in lifts and spit in the streets. The answer was not to put a camera there facing inwards to stop them from pissing in front of the camera. The answer was to stop them from pissing in the lifts altogether.
So the answer isn’t to set a delivery time. The answer is to stop people buggering around with other peoples property. To stop any possibility of trading that didn’t involve the immediate, near instantaneous transfer of property, so that at any instant in time one person alone owns any one item of property.
So anyway when the lift opened and the fellow stepped out of camera range to piss in the lift another method was devised to catch them. We have to take this exact same attitude to our bankers and traders who have lost all sense of civilized behaviour.
23 October, 2008 at 07:05
graemebird
I got the story a little bit wrong. He wasn’t marketing specifically to the soldiers. Best not to go on ones memory alone. Pick it up nine minutes in. Maybe 11 minutes if you are in a hurry. Up to 17 minutes or so.
23 October, 2008 at 08:40
Steve Edney
So you want to ban futures do you bird?
What about buying things from overseas. Can I buy things that take time to get shipped? Does it matter if they don’t ship it but just delay it until shipping time and source it locally?
23 October, 2008 at 09:17
graemebird
Well you can stop your dishonesty right now Edney. Its only going to clue the laity in as to the pandemic of dishonesty that has hit your industry. Because at no time have I ever said anything about banning that particular bookie operation.
But now that you bring it up we can say that futures would probably never have developed in a private 100% backed commodity monetary system. Nor in a fiat 100% backed system that had been in a state of “growth-deflation” for several prior decades. They are useless in the wider social context and ought to be thought of as a bookie operation. Or an extension the casino industry.
Its easy to see how an individual firm can afford cover from taking out some futures. In the wider context this is counterproductive. Particularly as the futures provider will have to be subsidised and bailed out when things go haywire.
Supposing you are a in a properly functioning market without any ponzi-schemes going on. Supposing you are an airline company that is worrying about the price of fuel sky-rocketing. Well this is most unusual. Since in a properly functioning ponzi-free market the price of fuel would not lurch about in the first place. These unstable prices are the result of ponzi-schemes buggering our price system in part.
But putting that aside we imagine that airline buys a lot of fuel at todays prices as a hedge. And the casino operation of futures is available but in a casino somewhere and the airline doesn’t go in for it. Instead it buys the fuel. There are honest speculators out there. And people who store fuel. In this case, even though the airline buys the extra fuel at arms length its act of buying is not merely a bookie operation. But leads to extra fuel being stored. This increases the return to THE PRODUCER (a fellow oddly left out of the thief-economics your type tend to adhere to) and allows him to ramp up production. But it also increases the return to the supplier of a substitute product. Perhaps not where the one airline is involved but in the wider context.
Thus the act of the company insuring itself has a fallout and he accidentally aids in insuring the wider society. All this is thrown into reverse in the wider context of the ponzi-society, whose ponzi-practices have enslaved it to bookie-operations.
Now we take the same airline and send him to the parallel-universe where ponzi-ism rules. Its like Captain Kirk meeting an evil version of himself. This is our world and the fuel prices lurch all about the place. So the airline MUST take out a futures contract. He has no choice. Particularly as in this world people do business with more debts and lower cash balances and therefore are utterly dependent on insurance of one form or another.
So he takes out his futures contract. And he gets the right end of the contract. The futures contract pays him out and delivers the fuel out of current production. The rest of us therefore must bid for our fuel out of the same. In the interim no adaptation has taken place. We are hurt more than he is covered. The derivatives loser in this contract is a subsidised institution that is one step closer to bailout. The risk hasn’t gone at all its been transferred to the public. The entire system is as dysfunctional and we are all liquidity junkies only kept alive with a new shot of credit expansion.
Why do you think that derivatives have ballooned up to 1000 trillion outstanding by some estimates? They are the junk to the fractional-reserve-everything junkie. This is a very weak system the fractional-reservists have given us. And its time to clean it all up. Because we are a vulnerable society so long as this idiocy continues and you guys pat yourselves on the back and delude yourselves into thinking that your salaries match your societal performance.
23 October, 2008 at 10:17
Andrew
Graeme,
What about me ordering and paying for something before it even exists? Surely that is fraudulent too?
23 October, 2008 at 10:46
graemebird
No it isn’t. Since we are not talking about a thing which changes ownership rapidly and is being pyramided upon. Its the change of OWNERSHIP of the thing which must be as certain and condensed in time as circumstances allow. There is no reason our bourse cannot innovate to get near-instant electronic certification and individuation of the security. Perfect ownership tracking unrelated to the flow of paper. But the thing is they probably don’t want to. They are probably all involved to some extent in some sort of indirect skimming.
Look at the bloke who ran the New York stock exchange just before and after 9/11. What was his payout? The ownership of this quasi-private setup have a hand in its shonkiness.
The thing is once this ponzi-business gets going its a real trial to unravel and settle. All insiders stand to lose.
23 October, 2008 at 10:52
Steve Edney
So is it ok for me to buy a house of the plan, and then sell it before construction is complete?
23 October, 2008 at 13:03
graemebird
Are you selling the same house to three different people simultaneously? Are the various changes in ownership left in limbo for long periods of time?
Any ambiguity of ownership needs to be compressed in time. But this is a 1000 times more important for a good that can potentially get retraded many times in one day. You would know yourself many dozens of scams that are possible if this is not the case. Although you might consider them normal and all part of contributing to successful uber-banker income.
See when we buy and sell a house. All the work that goes into it. But then when the ownership finally changes hands thats a near instantaneous thing. Otherwise I’d be sitting there saying…… You want the money sign the contract first. And then I get the signature and do a runner with the money and my new title. All arrangements are made so that this sort of thing doesn’t happen.
Like my place was subject to graffitti days before the contract. This would have lead to enourmous difficulties had there been a lengthened period of ambiguity in ownership. But as things stand the house was owned by one person one minute. Within two minutes later the house was unambiguously mine. Everything clicking into place in an instant of time. And always the smallest possible instant given the circumstances is what you are after if there is not a scam being attempted.
We see how it works in the most standard of purchases which I’ll go over again in greater detail:
When we buy things at the shop the question of clear ownership is handled so as to minimise the number of seconds where the ownership of the property is ambiguous.
You go to buy your can of coke. You are holding the can of coke. It is not yours. You take it to the counter. You put it on the counter. The girl scans it. The price comes up….. the coke belongs to the business… you reach for your wallet… the money is yours but the coke is not. At that moment that the girl accepts the money from your hand or picks it up from the counter the coke is yours but the money is in limbo. Once the change is given the money is the businesses. The ambiguity lasts for the minimum amount of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So long as your crowd is looking for loopholes its a shonky operation. Remember its not about us stopping you guys from pissing in front of the camera. We have to civilise you and stop you pissing in the lift altogether. If the whole industry has been corrupted that you have lost the ability to understand norms and instead are looking for legal loopholes than the rest of us have to do what is necessary to civilise you guys. Which is not normal regulation. But simple clarification of property rights and making sure they aren’t violated.
23 October, 2008 at 15:09
Steve Edney
So Bird if I sign a contract to buy a house in 6 weeks, you are saying that I shouldn’t be able to agree with a third party two weeks later to sell it to them in 4 weeks time?
What about a car dealer who sells me a car in say a colour they don’t have in stock and then has to go around and aquire one wholesale?
23 October, 2008 at 16:01
graemebird
No I didn’t say that at all. Re-read until you understand.
Its the official change in ownership that must happen in a defined and short period of time.
Just keep going over it and over it and over it until it sinks in.
But if you and all your industry are going to be obsessively looking for loopholes and retaining armies of lawyers to tie things up in court we just have to go back to the pissing in the lifts analogy.
You guys have been barbarised by decades of inflationism and pyramiding and you just have to be bankrupted or civilised.
Our entire success as a society depends on it. Leaving things the way they are is like having a massive undersupply of wharves and the wharfies and wharf owners being awash in illegality, sharp practices, peddling of political and underworld influence and retaining an army of lawyers.
23 October, 2008 at 16:04
graemebird
You are looking for loopholes. I busted you looking for loopholes. And after all those threads of doom I’m not so dim as to realise that this is fundamental institutional corruption.
24 October, 2008 at 08:43
Steve Edney
No ain’t busted no-one fella. This isn’t a bout a loophole its about the logical incoherence of your finance envy.
I’m trying to see what the difference is between signing a contract to sell a car to someone in a week when I may not own that car, but believe I can source it, and agreeing to sell some one shares in two days time that I don’t own but am confident I can source.
24 October, 2008 at 10:40
graemebird
No. I busted you looking for a loophole. You ought not to be allowed to do any pyramiding. But we know you guys are going to try it on. So whereas in the states they have, according to JC, maybe 77,000 pages of regulation…. well we can get rid of all that. But the regulations we need is for you guys not to sell diluted items or thin air as the real thing. And thats about it really. But because we know you guys are angling to cheat the rest of society, we would likely have to triple up on regulations for exactly the same purpose. Bankrupt you guys first of course. But the residual shonkiness, dishonest and parasitism will still be there. But the idea is to simply cut off every potential avenue for you guys to defraud the community via ponzi-schemes and pyramiding. In the same way as the Singaporeans had to civilize their people not to piss in the lifts. Being as our whole society depends on the success of this financial house-training.
24 October, 2008 at 16:04
Steve Edney
Stop the obsfucation about ponzi this and that. If you actually have an argument you can answer my questions.
Can I sign a contract to exchange some property in the future.
If I can, can I do it on an asset that I do not have possesion of but believe I can acquire?
24 October, 2008 at 16:52
graemebird
Sure you can. There was never any doubt about that. But if I was running things and you try some sort of pyramiding your ass will be in jail. If we call halt to the musical chairs and call for settlement than all the outstanding claims must equal what is really there or all professionals involved would face fines. Since the pyramiding deal usually involves 4 parties and three transactions we would have to go on the basis that it was a conspiracy. We would have to set it up in advance so that it would have to have been a conspiracy. Since we know that you guys are corrupt and looking for a chance to start the racket up again at any time.
Yes its true that this racket involves separate activities by separate entities that make it look like each individual act in itself is not criminal. But thats the whole trick to it.
So what is your argument? You are basically trying to look for an angle to justify the outrageous fraud and societal vandalism that pyramiding obviously is.
That was Goldman Sachs’ big money-spinner. This pyramiding on shares. But it still involves other parties doing what appear to be inoccuous things.
So don’t aggravate your charlatan status by looking at ways to try and justify the unjustifiable.
24 October, 2008 at 16:54
graemebird
When I say “Sure you can” I mean to the first statement not the second. You do the second you can go to jail.